Quote from fenn68 on January 5, 2020, 4:06 pm

Quote from BoosterSD on January 5, 2020, 3:46 pm

A curious little blurb on The Athletic from Bowden on Jan 1, 2020. His hot action items for each month, has SD listed for May. His pontification is that SD fires Tingler in May, being 12 games behind the LAD and in last place in May. Then hire Boche, and finish with a winning record for the season.

Too much Egg Nog over the Holidays.

Quote from Henry Silvestre on January 5, 2020, 6:35 pm

AJP like an 8.0 earthquake The Big One is Coming!

Quote from Brian Connelly on January 6, 2020, 6:44 am

Quote from onlypads on January 5, 2020, 12:09 pm

Quote from Brian Connelly on January 5, 2020, 10:46 am

Everyone should be THRILLED that Stammen re-signed!  Really thought no chance once they added Pierce Johnson (aside: Johnson's contract is like a mini version of Stammen's:  same exact structure but 65-75% of $$ incl incentives).

People whining about "how we're spending $" reminds me of when we drafted Trea Turner & most were whining that we should have instead drafted a (non-existent) 'power hitter'... WHAT/WHO exactly would you spend "the $" on?!   I really wanted a TOR SP, but where that $ ended up relative to what Pads have to work with I accepted was bonkers unrealistic.

Quiz:  Which would help a team more:  Zach Davies + Pomeranz + Stammen + Pierce Johnson... or (take your pick) just Cole Hamels OR Dallas Keuchel?

Andy Green had NOWHERE to go beyond Yates & Stammen last season; particularly early in year.  Stammen literally got over-used by like 25-30 IP/appearances, and some of the horrible outings could be directly attributed to that.  Bullpen isn't "just" 8 guys or almost 1/3 of 25-man... it ends up being 11-15 guys or about 1/3+ of entire 40-man roster.   Pads are vastly better off adding 2 (3 if Castillo back to 2018 form) RP's to last year's high upside but too inexperienced & predictably erratic staff... better to have the likes of Castillo, Munoz, Wingenter & Guerra to supplant Stammen & P. Johnson eventually than to be RELYING upon them on O.D. for high leverage innings on a team that literally for Preller HAS to be >.500

Stammen is the very rare dude who truly 1,000% means it when he says he doesn't care where/when he pitches; knows & accepts he's moving "back" in the pecking order.  Could his effectiveness fall off a cliff?  Sure.  But seems unlikely since great control & never a velocity/K guy to begin with.  Continuity of he & Yates vet leadership adds a lot.  Not saying you pay for past performance, but IMO the total $ over his old & new deal frankly has already been earned.

To be fair one can like the Pom, Pierce Johnson et al signings, and with consistency, deny the need for Stammen. In fact, the preceding move and additional.young arms are exactly why I am saying Stammen is not needed. We do not need to group all acquisitions together. We agreed to several minor league RP transactions too.

Last year, I admit RP was a weakness. I just thought we had addressed it.

Ryu and Madbum were also available. There are far more acquisition permutations outside of Keuchel and Hamels.

Only, Your main point here is a valid & fair one.   But I have a hard time seeing something "better" to spend (not trade for... spend) 4 MM on with what's left in FA than Stammen.   My frustration wasn't so much about people's opinion of Stammen; everyone's entitled, it's that vague B.S. "we should have spent the $ on 'something better'... that's a cop out... WHAT?!?  In Free Agency.  Right now.

No one argued harder for TOR incl Madbum OR Ryu than me, but with the dust settled now to where things are at, and Myers' value clearly depressed, I don't know if I'd exchange  Davies + 3 RP FA's even for 1 of those guys... our pen would be Yates + 7 Rookie or 2nd year guys... with payroll a few MM higher = nothing more to spend?  Can't be a "good" team that way.

Myers (perceived) value being as low as it is ties Preller's hands.  Had to be able to clear half his contract for just Myers to have a chance for a big 15-20+ MM add with all the other holes needing to be addressed.  Think when the cost of SP skyrocketed, Preller consciously decided to go big on Pen (depth WAS lacking; Morejon & Baez & Bolanos need to DEVELOP into whatever they will become by throwing innings... i.e. STARTING in Minors).  Stammen returning means we've effectively replaced:  Miguel Diaz (still in Minors), Eric Yardley, & Robert Stock and really the IP provided by the "baby SP's" with:  Pomeranz, P. Johnson (MLB hasn't seen him in 1 yr+), and hopefully Jose Castillo...  I think we're going to have one of the best bullpens in baseball backing a SP staff  that's young &/or innings limited.  Not a bad strategy.

 

Quote from onlypads on January 6, 2020, 8:24 am

Quote from Brian Connelly on January 6, 2020, 6:44 am

Quote from onlypads on January 5, 2020, 12:09 pm

Quote from Brian Connelly on January 5, 2020, 10:46 am

Everyone should be THRILLED that Stammen re-signed!  Really thought no chance once they added Pierce Johnson (aside: Johnson's contract is like a mini version of Stammen's:  same exact structure but 65-75% of $$ incl incentives).

People whining about "how we're spending $" reminds me of when we drafted Trea Turner & most were whining that we should have instead drafted a (non-existent) 'power hitter'... WHAT/WHO exactly would you spend "the $" on?!   I really wanted a TOR SP, but where that $ ended up relative to what Pads have to work with I accepted was bonkers unrealistic.

Quiz:  Which would help a team more:  Zach Davies + Pomeranz + Stammen + Pierce Johnson... or (take your pick) just Cole Hamels OR Dallas Keuchel?

Andy Green had NOWHERE to go beyond Yates & Stammen last season; particularly early in year.  Stammen literally got over-used by like 25-30 IP/appearances, and some of the horrible outings could be directly attributed to that.  Bullpen isn't "just" 8 guys or almost 1/3 of 25-man... it ends up being 11-15 guys or about 1/3+ of entire 40-man roster.   Pads are vastly better off adding 2 (3 if Castillo back to 2018 form) RP's to last year's high upside but too inexperienced & predictably erratic staff... better to have the likes of Castillo, Munoz, Wingenter & Guerra to supplant Stammen & P. Johnson eventually than to be RELYING upon them on O.D. for high leverage innings on a team that literally for Preller HAS to be >.500

Stammen is the very rare dude who truly 1,000% means it when he says he doesn't care where/when he pitches; knows & accepts he's moving "back" in the pecking order.  Could his effectiveness fall off a cliff?  Sure.  But seems unlikely since great control & never a velocity/K guy to begin with.  Continuity of he & Yates vet leadership adds a lot.  Not saying you pay for past performance, but IMO the total $ over his old & new deal frankly has already been earned.

To be fair one can like the Pom, Pierce Johnson et al signings, and with consistency, deny the need for Stammen. In fact, the preceding move and additional.young arms are exactly why I am saying Stammen is not needed. We do not need to group all acquisitions together. We agreed to several minor league RP transactions too.

Last year, I admit RP was a weakness. I just thought we had addressed it.

Ryu and Madbum were also available. There are far more acquisition permutations outside of Keuchel and Hamels.

Only, Your main point here is a valid & fair one.   But I have a hard time seeing something "better" to spend (not trade for... spend) 4 MM on with what's left in FA than Stammen.   My frustration wasn't so much about people's opinion of Stammen; everyone's entitled, it's that vague B.S. "we should have spent the $ on 'something better'... that's a cop out... WHAT?!?  In Free Agency.  Right now.

No one argued harder for TOR incl Madbum OR Ryu than me, but with the dust settled now to where things are at, and Myers' value clearly depressed, I don't know if I'd exchange  Davies + 3 RP FA's even for 1 of those guys... our pen would be Yates + 7 Rookie or 2nd year guys... with payroll a few MM higher = nothing more to spend?  Can't be a "good" team that way.

Myers (perceived) value being as low as it is ties Preller's hands.  Had to be able to clear half his contract for just Myers to have a chance for a big 15-20+ MM add with all the other holes needing to be addressed.  Think when the cost of SP skyrocketed, Preller consciously decided to go big on Pen (depth WAS lacking; Morejon & Baez & Bolanos need to DEVELOP into whatever they will become by throwing innings... i.e. STARTING in Minors).  Stammen returning means we've effectively replaced:  Miguel Diaz (still in Minors), Eric Yardley, & Robert Stock and really the IP provided by the "baby SP's" with:  Pomeranz, P. Johnson (MLB hasn't seen him in 1 yr+), and hopefully Jose Castillo...  I think we're going to have one of the best bullpens in baseball backing a SP staff  that's young &/or innings limited.  Not a bad strategy.

 

It is a fair point. I think deep down I probably know you are right. I know he provides some value in that slot. I think my biggest concern is whether the signing was needed at all rather than his value as compared to a replacement FA. Unnecessary spending, even if in small pieces, can prevent subsequent pivotal moves downstream.

I guess the arms are needed and this allows us to put the young guys in the minors to develop -- and you know who can work with them there now which is a good thing.

Tbh I just have a strong bias against Stammen. I didn't like his public comments in support of Andy when the org was trying to convince the team a new direction was better (he could have been respectful to Andy while expressing excitement for the new direction).  I think he is a bit of the old regime. See Hedges and Margot. I really got sick of him giving up games last year and I tend to believe he is more likely to regress rather than improve (age).  I dont love the idea of celebrating a guy just because he throws when you give him the ball.  I'm a lawyer. If a partner asks me to work late I do. Sure there is some value in being "there," but as the stakes increase, execution becomes critical. His FB movement is pretty but it seemed hittable in the biggest moments.

Admittedly, I am probably being unfair here.

Quote from BoosterSD on January 6, 2020, 8:47 am

Stammen is a good signing because it takes Morejon and Baez of out of the pen and back to the minors to reset as starters instead of bull pen arms. Increases their value both to SD and to the possible trade market as starters instead of RP.

And with Yates, Munoz, and Johnson, Strahm, and Pomeranz, dont really see Stammen getting as many high leverage innings as he did in 2019. So thats a bonus as well.

Not really much of an overpay with the amount that RPs have gotten this offseason.

Quote from Brian Connelly on January 6, 2020, 10:02 am

Quote from BoosterSD on January 6, 2020, 8:47 am

Stammen is a good signing because it takes Morejon and Baez of out of the pen and back to the minors to reset as starters instead of bull pen arms. Increases their value both to SD and to the possible trade market as starters instead of RP.

And with Yates, Munoz, and Johnson, Strahm, and Pomeranz, dont really see Stammen getting as many high leverage innings as he did in 2019. So thats a bonus as well.

Not really much of an overpay with the amount that RPs have gotten this offseason.

YESSS!  I get they were protecting Morejon & Baez off injury, but Morejon being in MLB at all last year was ridiculous.  Even if they both wind up being RP's down the road they (esp Baez) need as many IP as possible to work on developing pitches, command, etc.

Sounds like Stammen's return was wanted & in the plans "all along"... but he was down in the pecking order of priorities.  I view his signing as a possible signal that big trade for ex. Merrifield just not going to happen.

Bigger picture, could see Paddack routinely getting to 7th inning this year, but other 4 SP's all have their issues.  Davies & Lucchesi not really "built" for going that deep.  Richards & Lamet have the stuff to, but might be on in-game pitch limits like Paddack was last year, which inherently limits how deep they can go.   Would never be this extreme, but if you had 160  5.0 inning starts (& let's say 2 complete games) that would leave 640 innings to cover.... 1o guys x 64 IP each!

Pads 40-man & Farm in general has tons of P's, but was very light on depth of "true" RP's... look at the Majors AND Minors adds.

Quote from MrPadre19 on January 6, 2020, 10:12 am

I think the Stammen signing hit as just a bit of a surprise to us.

With the moves/additions we've made I think just about every one of us thought the Pen was set

and there had been zero mention of Stammen here for some time.

I also remember many games last season where he gave up leads late and it got to where I cringed

every time he was called on.This is why I thought we had moved on from him...so the signing came out of left field for me.

But....I'm OK with it...just surprised.

As long as he pitches is some less high leverage situations this season?

 

Quote from onlypads on January 6, 2020, 10:53 am

Quote from BoosterSD on January 6, 2020, 8:47 am

Stammen is a good signing because it takes Morejon and Baez of out of the pen and back to the minors to reset as starters instead of bull pen arms. Increases their value both to SD and to the possible trade market as starters instead of RP.

And with Yates, Munoz, and Johnson, Strahm, and Pomeranz, dont really see Stammen getting as many high leverage innings as he did in 2019. So thats a bonus as well.

Not really much of an overpay with the amount that RPs have gotten this offseason.

Amarillo is going to be stacked.

Quote from TatisJr on January 6, 2020, 11:02 am

Quote from MrPadre19 on January 6, 2020, 10:12 am

I think the Stammen signing hit as just a bit of a surprise to us.

With the moves/additions we've made I think just about every one of us thought the Pen was set

and there had been zero mention of Stammen here for some time.

I also remember many games last season where he gave up leads late and it got to where I cringed

every time he was called on.This is why I thought we had moved on from him...so the signing came out of left field for me.

But....I'm OK with it...just surprised.

As long as he pitches is some less high leverage situations this season?

 

Undoubtedly some of the games Stammen blew last year were some UGLY blowups. I just think the ugliness of those few blown games has drastically and unfairly skewed fans views of Stammen. The guy led ALL OF BASEBALL in Holds last year with 31. Stammen is still a strike throwing machine who generates ground balls and LHH struggle mightily against him. We are lucky to have him back especially at that price.