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2023 Season

#801 · August 10, 2023, 2:49 pm

Quote from sportwarrior on August 10, 2023, 2:49 pm

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 10, 2023, 12:44 pm

Quote from sportwarrior on August 10, 2023, 11:51 am

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 9, 2023, 11:19 pm

Quote from BoosterSD on August 9, 2023, 10:14 pm

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 9, 2023, 9:22 pm

With our players we should be beating those teams in contention anyways, this situation just proves that you can't buy a championship, I can't think one time that somebody tried to do that and it worked (following baseball since 1999), teams that win grow their own superstars and maybe add one or two players to complement what they already have, so, let's not fool ourselves, until our home grown players get to the highest level and succeed the Padres will, in the meantime let's enjoy mediocrity for a couple of years

Yes, you need to be able to beat contenders to be a contender. This team is proving who they, and they are not good.

However, I can think of at least one team that basically "bought" its championship of the top of my head, and that was the 2001 AZ Diamondbacks. Very few of those players were home grown.

Sure, but I am not sure they were trying to do so, besides Schilling and Johnson, none of the others were superstars at their prime IMO, most of them were over 30, I can recall Bell, González, Williams, Finley, Grace, somehow they just clicked together, but It wasn't like the Dbacks were handing contracts of millons and millions of dollars left and right

I've been saying the 2001 Dbacks bought their championship since they won it, and I'll never think otherwise.

They traded for Matt Williams and signed him to a then-huge 45m extension. They signed Jay Bell as a FA to a 35m contract, one of the first true overpays for middle road talent the game had seen. They had a payroll more than twice that of the Padres, good for 4th largest in the NL and the 8th largest overall.

We're seeing that teams also need chemistry and the right pieces, but make no mistake... Jerry Colangelo definitely paid for that championship.

Sure, although you could say that they were 8th in payroll because they overpaid a couple of players, but, actually It wasn't their true value, also, let's take into account that without Johnson and Schilling there were just a mediocre team, in games where both has a decision they were 45-12, 47-48 when they couldn't get the win for them or when they didn't play, one thing is that Colangelo payed for the championship, very different Is that he bought It out

I think this is a tad revisionist, or at least missing some key points. Jerry Colangelo famously took a no-expenses-spared approach to assembling that team, taking out significant loans and making several cash calls to minority owners to fund as much as they needed to win. They spent over 100m in free agency after their first season and brought in a ton of advanced age vets in an aggressive win-now approach, and then spent aggressively again before the 2001 season. This was a much talked about topic at the time, as the Dbacks were the first team to really exhibit the out-of-control spending that defined the 2000s (and this 2023 Padres squad).

Importantly, he also asked a bunch of the players (18!) to defer massive chunks of their salaries in order to reallocate money to general operations and acquiring new players. Without those deferrals, their true 2001 payroll would have soared well into the mid 100m range making it easily the top payroll in the game that season.

Simply put, they bought that championship.

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 10, 2023, 12:44 pm

Quote from sportwarrior on August 10, 2023, 11:51 am

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 9, 2023, 11:19 pm

Quote from BoosterSD on August 9, 2023, 10:14 pm

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 9, 2023, 9:22 pm

With our players we should be beating those teams in contention anyways, this situation just proves that you can't buy a championship, I can't think one time that somebody tried to do that and it worked (following baseball since 1999), teams that win grow their own superstars and maybe add one or two players to complement what they already have, so, let's not fool ourselves, until our home grown players get to the highest level and succeed the Padres will, in the meantime let's enjoy mediocrity for a couple of years

Yes, you need to be able to beat contenders to be a contender. This team is proving who they, and they are not good.

However, I can think of at least one team that basically "bought" its championship of the top of my head, and that was the 2001 AZ Diamondbacks. Very few of those players were home grown.

Sure, but I am not sure they were trying to do so, besides Schilling and Johnson, none of the others were superstars at their prime IMO, most of them were over 30, I can recall Bell, González, Williams, Finley, Grace, somehow they just clicked together, but It wasn't like the Dbacks were handing contracts of millons and millions of dollars left and right

I've been saying the 2001 Dbacks bought their championship since they won it, and I'll never think otherwise.

They traded for Matt Williams and signed him to a then-huge 45m extension. They signed Jay Bell as a FA to a 35m contract, one of the first true overpays for middle road talent the game had seen. They had a payroll more than twice that of the Padres, good for 4th largest in the NL and the 8th largest overall.

We're seeing that teams also need chemistry and the right pieces, but make no mistake... Jerry Colangelo definitely paid for that championship.

Sure, although you could say that they were 8th in payroll because they overpaid a couple of players, but, actually It wasn't their true value, also, let's take into account that without Johnson and Schilling there were just a mediocre team, in games where both has a decision they were 45-12, 47-48 when they couldn't get the win for them or when they didn't play, one thing is that Colangelo payed for the championship, very different Is that he bought It out

I think this is a tad revisionist, or at least missing some key points. Jerry Colangelo famously took a no-expenses-spared approach to assembling that team, taking out significant loans and making several cash calls to minority owners to fund as much as they needed to win. They spent over 100m in free agency after their first season and brought in a ton of advanced age vets in an aggressive win-now approach, and then spent aggressively again before the 2001 season. This was a much talked about topic at the time, as the Dbacks were the first team to really exhibit the out-of-control spending that defined the 2000s (and this 2023 Padres squad).

Importantly, he also asked a bunch of the players (18!) to defer massive chunks of their salaries in order to reallocate money to general operations and acquiring new players. Without those deferrals, their true 2001 payroll would have soared well into the mid 100m range making it easily the top payroll in the game that season.

Simply put, they bought that championship.

#802 · August 10, 2023, 2:54 pm

Quote from Jeremy Hill on August 10, 2023, 2:54 pm

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 10, 2023, 12:33 pm

Quote from Jeremy Hill on August 10, 2023, 10:26 am

The Marlins are the last team to win a World Series with a below average payroll. The Yankees won 4 in 5 years from 1996-2000 with the 1st or 2nd highest payroll in the league every year. The Dodgers had the highest payroll in the league in 2020. The Nationals were 3rd in 2019. The Red Sox were 1st in 2018 and top 3 in all of their recent World Series years.

I agree that you probably want to have a better blend of internally and externally developed talent. Having cheap talent obviously gives you more financial flexibility and the ability to support the major league club from within during the year is a big plus. It's not like extension money counts any less on the payroll than free agent money though. The ability to spend money is only a positive. You just have to spend it on the right guys. Look at the Rangers. They gave out huge money to Seager and Semien. Eovaldi, Gray, Heaney, and Perez all joined the team as free agents. That doesn't even get into deGrom. They may not win the World Series, but I doubt any of us would be complaining if we were in their situation.

Still the yankees had Jeter, O Hernández, Pettite, Rivera, Posada, Girardi, Williams AND just complemented that with Martínez, Wells and such, the Dodgers had Buehler, Urías, Jansen, Kershaw, W Smith, Seager, Pederson, Bellinger, complemented with Betts, not sure there Is another superstars they got that season or the previous year, Boston same thing, Nats developed Soto and Stasburg, regardless of how much they spend, proof Is that you need a few pieces that contribute at the mlb level to be drafted and/or signed as an international free agent and more importantly developed

Girardi didn't come up with the Yankees. Hernandez signed as a free agent after defecting from Cuba. Jeter, Posada and Rivera were all well past the point of reaching free agency, but were still there when they won it in 2009 playing with the likes of A-Rod, Teixeira, Damon, Swisher, Matsui, Sabathia and Burnett. I also think you're massively underselling what the Yankees were doing in free agency in that late 90s to early 2000s era. That's not really the point though.

My point is having the spending power to not only retain your own guys as they start to get more expensive, but also add more on top of that is huge. A lot more has to go right to put together a team like The Rays and Orioles have this year than it does for a team with big time money to spend. You can say it's not "buying" a championship by adding to a homegrown core, but lots of teams don't have that luxury.

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 10, 2023, 12:33 pm

Quote from Jeremy Hill on August 10, 2023, 10:26 am

The Marlins are the last team to win a World Series with a below average payroll. The Yankees won 4 in 5 years from 1996-2000 with the 1st or 2nd highest payroll in the league every year. The Dodgers had the highest payroll in the league in 2020. The Nationals were 3rd in 2019. The Red Sox were 1st in 2018 and top 3 in all of their recent World Series years.

I agree that you probably want to have a better blend of internally and externally developed talent. Having cheap talent obviously gives you more financial flexibility and the ability to support the major league club from within during the year is a big plus. It's not like extension money counts any less on the payroll than free agent money though. The ability to spend money is only a positive. You just have to spend it on the right guys. Look at the Rangers. They gave out huge money to Seager and Semien. Eovaldi, Gray, Heaney, and Perez all joined the team as free agents. That doesn't even get into deGrom. They may not win the World Series, but I doubt any of us would be complaining if we were in their situation.

Still the yankees had Jeter, O Hernández, Pettite, Rivera, Posada, Girardi, Williams AND just complemented that with Martínez, Wells and such, the Dodgers had Buehler, Urías, Jansen, Kershaw, W Smith, Seager, Pederson, Bellinger, complemented with Betts, not sure there Is another superstars they got that season or the previous year, Boston same thing, Nats developed Soto and Stasburg, regardless of how much they spend, proof Is that you need a few pieces that contribute at the mlb level to be drafted and/or signed as an international free agent and more importantly developed

Girardi didn't come up with the Yankees. Hernandez signed as a free agent after defecting from Cuba. Jeter, Posada and Rivera were all well past the point of reaching free agency, but were still there when they won it in 2009 playing with the likes of A-Rod, Teixeira, Damon, Swisher, Matsui, Sabathia and Burnett. I also think you're massively underselling what the Yankees were doing in free agency in that late 90s to early 2000s era. That's not really the point though.

My point is having the spending power to not only retain your own guys as they start to get more expensive, but also add more on top of that is huge. A lot more has to go right to put together a team like The Rays and Orioles have this year than it does for a team with big time money to spend. You can say it's not "buying" a championship by adding to a homegrown core, but lots of teams don't have that luxury.

#803 · August 10, 2023, 5:32 pm

Quote from MrPadre19 on August 10, 2023, 5:32 pm

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 10, 2023, 12:33 pm

Quote from Jeremy Hill on August 10, 2023, 10:26 am

The Marlins are the last team to win a World Series with a below average payroll. The Yankees won 4 in 5 years from 1996-2000 with the 1st or 2nd highest payroll in the league every year. The Dodgers had the highest payroll in the league in 2020. The Nationals were 3rd in 2019. The Red Sox were 1st in 2018 and top 3 in all of their recent World Series years.

I agree that you probably want to have a better blend of internally and externally developed talent. Having cheap talent obviously gives you more financial flexibility and the ability to support the major league club from within during the year is a big plus. It's not like extension money counts any less on the payroll than free agent money though. The ability to spend money is only a positive. You just have to spend it on the right guys. Look at the Rangers. They gave out huge money to Seager and Semien. Eovaldi, Gray, Heaney, and Perez all joined the team as free agents. That doesn't even get into deGrom. They may not win the World Series, but I doubt any of us would be complaining if we were in their situation.

Still the yankees had Jeter, O Hernández, Pettite, Rivera, Posada, Girardi, Williams AND just complemented that with Martínez, Wells and such, the Dodgers had Buehler, Urías, Jansen, Kershaw, W Smith, Seager, Pederson, Bellinger, complemented with Betts, not sure there Is another superstars they got that season or the previous year, Boston same thing, Nats developed Soto and Stasburg, regardless of how much they spend, proof Is that you need a few pieces that contribute at the mlb level to be drafted and/or signed as an international free agent and more importantly developed

Yes they all had plenty of homegrown players but is that the question here or how high the payroll?

Are we saying a $250 mil payroll with all homegrown players is better than a $250 mil payroll full of free agents?

I’m thinking if you won the WS the Org and the fans wouldn’t care.

The bottom line is no matter whether you draft and extend good players or trade for them or sign them in free agency to win a WS you almost always have to have a top 10 payroll.

When was the last time a team outside the top 10 won a ring?(asking cause I’m not sure)

The Rays are the best example of a competitive team year in and year out with a low payroll….but until they win one they don’t change this narrative.

Quote from Alex Tamayo on August 10, 2023, 12:33 pm

Quote from Jeremy Hill on August 10, 2023, 10:26 am

The Marlins are the last team to win a World Series with a below average payroll. The Yankees won 4 in 5 years from 1996-2000 with the 1st or 2nd highest payroll in the league every year. The Dodgers had the highest payroll in the league in 2020. The Nationals were 3rd in 2019. The Red Sox were 1st in 2018 and top 3 in all of their recent World Series years.

I agree that you probably want to have a better blend of internally and externally developed talent. Having cheap talent obviously gives you more financial flexibility and the ability to support the major league club from within during the year is a big plus. It's not like extension money counts any less on the payroll than free agent money though. The ability to spend money is only a positive. You just have to spend it on the right guys. Look at the Rangers. They gave out huge money to Seager and Semien. Eovaldi, Gray, Heaney, and Perez all joined the team as free agents. That doesn't even get into deGrom. They may not win the World Series, but I doubt any of us would be complaining if we were in their situation.

Still the yankees had Jeter, O Hernández, Pettite, Rivera, Posada, Girardi, Williams AND just complemented that with Martínez, Wells and such, the Dodgers had Buehler, Urías, Jansen, Kershaw, W Smith, Seager, Pederson, Bellinger, complemented with Betts, not sure there Is another superstars they got that season or the previous year, Boston same thing, Nats developed Soto and Stasburg, regardless of how much they spend, proof Is that you need a few pieces that contribute at the mlb level to be drafted and/or signed as an international free agent and more importantly developed

Yes they all had plenty of homegrown players but is that the question here or how high the payroll?

Are we saying a $250 mil payroll with all homegrown players is better than a $250 mil payroll full of free agents?

I’m thinking if you won the WS the Org and the fans wouldn’t care.

The bottom line is no matter whether you draft and extend good players or trade for them or sign them in free agency to win a WS you almost always have to have a top 10 payroll.

When was the last time a team outside the top 10 won a ring?(asking cause I’m not sure)

The Rays are the best example of a competitive team year in and year out with a low payroll….but until they win one they don’t change this narrative.

Jeremy Hill has reacted to this post.

#804 · August 10, 2023, 8:30 pm

Look I'm not against spending like crazy, to be honest I love that doing so, It helps selling out almost every night, but I believe that even though having a top 10 payroll is important and probably a requirement to win it all, you also need to have home grown players (ethier within the initial years of control or extended), you can't just focus on spending like crazy and expect that the outcome will be a ws ring, IMHO opinion It doesn't work

#805 · August 12, 2023, 7:38 pm

That loss cost us a game in the WC standings to every team ahead of us that played today.

#806 · August 12, 2023, 7:52 pm

Gallen was really good, I hope tomorrow they smack Pfaadt around, 2 out of 3 would be good.

#807 · August 13, 2023, 1:09 pm

Pfaadt is 0-6 with a 7.16 ERA. With their playoff lives on the line IF they can not beat this guy today they should just forfeit the rest of the season and go to the beach!

#808 · August 13, 2023, 4:12 pm

Quote from BoosterSD on August 13, 2023, 1:09 pm

Pfaadt is 0-6 with a 7.16 ERA. With their playoff lives on the line IF they can not beat this guy today they should just forfeit the rest of the season and go to the beach!

Hope they bring their sunscreen….

#809 · August 14, 2023, 10:46 am

Okay, once again I will drink some Kool Aid, and think that SD can use this home stand for a season turn around. 10 games at home v. BAL (3), AZ (4), and MIA (3).

If they can go 9-1 or 8-2, I will believe they have fire in their guts. Anything less, and I will confirm that my recent assessment of this team is correct and some one might need to pay for this abomination of a season with their job. And not just a sacrificial hitting coach this time!!!

#810 · August 14, 2023, 11:33 am

Quote from BoosterSD on August 14, 2023, 10:46 am

Okay, once again I will drink some Kool Aid, and think that SD can use this home stand for a season turn around. 10 games at home v. BAL (3), AZ (4), and MIA (3).

If they can go 9-1 or 8-2, I will believe they have fire in their guts. Anything less, and I will confirm that my recent assessment of this team is correct and some one might need to pay for this abomination of a season with their job. And not just a sacrificial hitting coach this time!!!

I just cannot see how it's possible. At least 4 players only meetings, at least one coach's meeting, countless wakeup calls and new lows, and we're still completely unable to win the games we should and/or need to. This team... it just isn't it.

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